Moritz Neukirchner of Elektrobit

Overview

JOHN: Today in The Garage, we’re live from CES 2025 with Elektrobit. Let’s go.

JOHN: Welcome to The Garage. I’m John Heinlein, Chief Marketing Officer with Sonatus. We’re recording live at CES 2025 at the Sonatus booth. I’m so glad to welcome today a guest from Elektrobit. Elektrobit is a key industry leader, helping OEM and Tier 1s tackle the shift to software defined vehicles. My guest today is Moritz Neukirchner. My good friend, thank you for joining us. Welcome to The Garage.

MORITZ: Thanks, John, for having me here.

Meet Moritz Neukirchner

JOHN: So first you have to tell us about yourself and your background.

MORITZ: So I’m a senior director for SDV Product Management within Elektrobit. So I look at the overall offering, the overall transition that we need to master as an industry, not only from a technological perspective, but also organizationally and from a business perspective.

JOHN: Great. And what’s your background? Where were you before and what have you done prior?

MORITZ: So I come, actually, from electrical engineering. I’m an electrical engineer by training.

JOHN: Me too.

MORITZ: Have been in the deeply embedded, real time world. Done a PhD in formal analysis of real time systems, lots of math, lots of kernel hacking stuff. And I completely transitioned over to the SDV field, where we actually get a convergence of technologies between Linux, from general IT and automotive. When we throw in safety into the bunch, when we throw in Android and creating ecosystems. So I think this is an awesome challenge right now in the industry, how we see that software development is completely evolving.

JOHN: It really is, the software is changing so much, and we don’t let our guests get away without giving us a fun fact about themselves. You got to tell us a fun fact about you.

MORITZ: So, you know, I’m German, but I actually like to appreciate the single parts of each and every country. So I lived in the US and in Italy before, and there’s so many things that— the little things that you appreciate about some countries, and this is really what I enjoy. Also, when you come to CES to actually get together with different cultures as well. And this is really cool here, I mean, especially in Vegas, right?

JOHN: Yeah. Well, my fun fact, I’ll give you two related fun facts. Firstly, I appreciate that as well. I agree that I really appreciate different cultures. I love to travel, I loveEurope, but really all over the world. My name is German, as you know. My great grandfather came from Bavaria, from Germany. But it’s been 100 years since I’ve come from Germany. So as you can well attest, my German skills are zero. But I appreciate it, it’s a great background.

About Elektrobit

JOHN: So tell us about Elektrobit. Give us an introduction to the company and then perhaps about the areas you focus on.

MORITZ: Yes. So Elektrobit is a company that specializes in automotive software. And we do everything from hypervisors, operating system, middleware like AUTOSAR, up to Android, up to complete system integration and even first stage hardware design. Not for mass production, but actually, aiding our customers in Tier 1s and OEMs to build complete systems. And at the same time, we look at the software development process, the software construction process. So how we enable our customers now to speed up these iteration cycles that we now— we need with the SDV transition to actually be extremely efficient and quick to get customer value through software into cars.

JOHN: You know, software is such a key focus of the podcast and of Sonatus and that idea of, shift left, as some people say, or just changing the design cycle, I think is so important. And there’s a feeling from some people that software is a tax and software is a detriment. And I don’t really look at it that way. I look at it as a huge opportunity.

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: But you need to do the work, you need to develop the infrastructure. And once you do that work, you can reap huge benefits, I think.

MORITZ: Yes. And I mean, what you say like… a lot of times it’s been considered as an afterthought, as a means to build a car.

JOHN: Yeah.

Software-defined vehicles

MORITZ: I think right now we are in a point of, we have hardware defined software. And now we want to get to software defined hardware, right? So we see these transitions. Also when you look at the architectures right now, how it is evolving, that— that the E/E Architecture is changing based on the way that you want to implement new functions based on software. So when we look at the transition for zonal architectures, for instance, how these things are changing, this is just plain amazing. It’s, I think, the biggest revolution the automotive industry has seen.

JOHN: It really is. I mean, zonal is a fun topic we’ve talked about with many different guests. Talking about networking providers, silicon providers and so on, and the opportunity to just radically change how vehicles are structured with zonal, where things aren’t necessarily fixed in one location. Yeah, maybe there are certain functions that are fixed because the sensors are nearby, but then workloads can migrate. You can do, adaption based on failures. You can do adaption based on load, and you can do adaption based on new capabilities that come in after shipment that you weren’t thinking about. It’s such a huge opportunity.

MORITZ: Yes. And I think this is, really one of the key points when you look at the SDV value proposition. There’s been so much confusion about this in the market. I mean, it’s a so overloaded buzzword. But in the end, when we think about customer value, the car shouldn’t be the best it’s ever going to be when you drive it off the lot. It needs to get better over time.

JOHN: Yes.

MORITZ: And no one would accept a smartphone today without access to an app store, right?

JOHN: Right.

MORITZ: And I think this is going to be really the part for SDV as well. No one is going to accept a car that stays the same for the next 10, 15 years that you own it, but you really want it to evolve, to get better over time, to receive new functions and that’s really at the core of SDV.

JOHN: It’s right, it’s right. And of course, and for us, some of that is in the IVI. Some of it — you do a lot of work on Android — but some of it is also deeper in the car as well.

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: The opportunity for SDV doesn’t just end at the IVI. There’s opportunities to improve, for example, efficiency, battery management. The understanding of the science of batteries is in its infancy. There’s so much learning.

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: And then as we go into things like hydrogen fuel cells or other alternative propulsion methods. And whether we even get into sort of new supercapacitor-based EVs, I mean, we’ll see how that goes in the coming years. The point is, those things are going to evolve rapidly.

MORITZ: And that’s even just looking at the vehicle as a means of mobility, right?

JOHN: Yes.

MORITZ: If you regard the fleets of vehicles out in the field.

JOHN: In aggregate.

MORITZ: In aggregate, I mean, you have driving sensors that have lidar, radar, ultrasound, weather sensors, light sensors, speakers. And you now think, okay, what could I establish if I had access to all that data as an aggregate and build even business cases outside of traditional mobility business cases. This is where it gets extremely interesting.

V2X

JOHN: This is such an interesting topic. Last year I had Steve Bell from Wards on the podcast. We had a fantastic conversation about connected cars and V2X. Well, just a few weeks ago, I think, Congress in the US passed a thing to approve cellular V2X if I remember correctly. So, V2X has been a long journey coming. And we’re getting a little off topic, but this is a fun conversation. But if you have the — if we are finally able to get vehicles to be able to share data much more than just, okay, I have my phone and it shares up to Google. And Google kind of knows the traffic, but it’s very rudimentary, right? If we’re able to make much more compelling things, why does the car not know that the car in front of it is already braking and the car behind that?

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: You can get much better utilization of roads, you can get much more holistic route planning versus that of a greedy algorithm. We can use an algorithm that’s more of a global scheduling that says, look, these— this many cars are going to do this way, this many cars are going to go that way, and everyone wins, because we’ve looked more holistically.

MORITZ: What is extremely important in the area is you can’t have a fragmentation of these data ecosystems.

JOHN: Right.

MORITZ: Right now, we see still a lot of initiatives to do with…

JOHN: Proprietary.

MORITZ: …proprietary per OEM and these kind of things. I’m personally a huge fan of COVESA vehicle signal specification because we get to control semantics. So if I’m a software developer, I don’t want to fiddle around with individual CAN frames when I want to get the speed of the car.

JOHN: Right.

MORITZ: Well, I want to get the flow of the vehicle, the speed of the vehicle.

JOHN: Right.

MORITZ: And this is really one of the inflection points that we need to reach if we are ever going to reach something like an ecosystem for vehicles, we need to fight fragmentation.

JOHN: That’s right, that’s right. We’re big— we’re COVESA members. We’re big supporters of VSS. We showed some demonstrations here in the booth about VSS. But anyway, a little bit off topic with V2X, but I think that that’s kind of, sort of bigger picture thinking was your original point.

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: Unlocks things that people aren’t even thinking about as they’re looking just narrowly at can I make the IVI a little bit better.

MORITZ: Yeah.

JOHN: There’s a much bigger opportunity.

Automotive Development Ecosystems

MORITZ: Right. And the other point is, we can’t have an automotive-specific development ecosystem. I mean, we are now seeing this convergence of technologies, right? So we suddenly see, we’ve had ethernet stacks in automotive already for quite some time. We see how, for instance, insurance technology companies are trying to get into vehicles. And these developers don’t come from automotive. So we need to provide developer experience that they are used to.

JOHN: Right.

MORITZ: And not get into all kinds of process overhead or specific frameworks that are nowhere else used.

JOHN: That’s right.

MORITZ: So we need to establish or make use of established developer ecosystems. And I think really open source is one of the very key points.

JOHN: Sure. And cloud native designing generally.

MORITZ: Yes. And this is why we are huge fans of Android and Linux in the car and actually also providing the development experiences for that in the cloud so that it is openly accessible for everyone.

Linux in Vehicles

JOHN: Right. This is a great transition. We’ve got to talk a little bit about your Linux offering for vehicles. Tell us about that and your goals.

MORITZ: Yeah. So I mean for us Linux has always been limited to very specific use cases in automotive because of the lack of support for functional safety. And this is now a massive game-changer. We have now achieved a Linux solution that allows to execute ASIL-B relevant applications on top of Linux. And the pretty thing about it is, we do this without safety certifying Linux itself. So Linux is rapidly evolving. That’s a good thing. And still we see roughly 500 kernel security patches per year in the Linux mainline kernel. And it’s a good thing that we see it because you should get suspicious when you have proprietary software and you don’t see that stuff.

JOHN: That’s right.

MORITZ: So now we need to—

JOHN: It’s not the patches you see that you worry about. It’s the patches you don’t see.

MORITZ: Exactly. Or that don’t even happen.

JOHN: Or don’t happen. Exactly. Right.

MORITZ: So you now need to keep up the pace of the community and keep the stability for safety. And what we’ve done here is build a safety solution that doesn’t safety certify Linux itself, but makes it usable for safety relevant applications.

JOHN: Right.

MORITZ: We’ve done this for ISO 26262, but also the IEC 61508. So that is also not limited to automotive. This is now a massive game changer, because every computer science student that leaves the university knows Linux.

JOHN: Right.

MORITZ: There’s so many tools available for Linux. And you’re not now bound to anything proprietary, anything automotive-specific any longer. But you can actually use Linux for safety related workloads.

JOHN: That’s great. We had the same challenge in our own— one of our own products, and we’re showing demonstrations just right outside the window here of our Automator product, which is, likewise, a very large product.

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: But we wanted to be able to enable it for functional safety. So our approach there was, we developed the safety interlock module that sits to the side of— as kind of an interposer, if you will. And that was certified to ASIL-D for us. ASIL Delta, D, which is great to allow that to be used, if the OEM wants, in safety critical applications, knowing that the actions Automator suggests to take will only occur if functionally safe.

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: So it’s a similar approach where we’re using the right answer to solve the problem.

MORITZ: Right, because you need to cut down the safety relevant parts to the absolute minimum so that you can keep the iterations. I mean, you may be able to do safety for a large piece of software… once.

JOHN: Yeah. Maintaining it is hard.

MORITZ: But, we’re talking about cars. It’s 10-15 years. You need to maintain it. And now if you talk about SDV and you want to provide updates and upgrades over lifetime, you can’t afford to recertify huge pieces of software over and over and over again. And this is really the essential part: not to look at the price of construction for a single project once for SOP. But we need to look in SDV at the total cost of ownership of software. And this is why we need to consider the maintenance, also, when we build these systems.

JOHN: That’s fantastic. And when— how are you— what’s your goal or where are you targeting to deploy this, your Linux solution? You know, give me this— give me the product name of it. I don’t think you said.

MORITZ: That’s EB corbos Linux for Safety Applications.

JOHN: Great.

MORITZ: And it’s essentially for everything in automotive where you have safety needs running on HPCs. There’s obviously, also, the real time ECUs that will remain relevant. But we see, also, classic AUTOSAR remaining its relevance there. We have safety solutions for that as well. But for anything on HPCs where you have safety workloads, that’s where you can put it on. Or also other industries, so we’ve also here at CES seen quite a bit of interest from outside of automotive to employ this technology.

JOHN: I’m sure. Aerospace, space, and things like that. There’s other applications I’m sure.

MORITZ: Industry automation.

JOHN: Yeah, factory automation, of course.

MORITZ: Robotics.

Elektrobit Exhibition at CES

JOHN: Yeah. Very good, very good. Tell us, what are you showing at the exhibition this week?

MORITZ: So we do have EB corbos Linux for Safety Applications, obviously. The other part that we focus a lot on is SDV-capable workflows. So we look at, specifically in the demos that we show here, at the cockpit design, and we separate the UX design aspects completely from source code development. So that your UX designers can stay in a Figma world and couple that— these design assets at runtime with the source code.

JOHN: Right.

MORITZ: And the key point about it is: you can do customization, regionalization, customization for multiple brands and multi-brand OEMs without changing a single line of source code. So you reduce the number of software variants, but kind of have the customization for different market needs, and that means you only need to release once. And this is the key point: in SDV, you need to keep the variance down so that you can keep these quick iteration cycles. And on top of that we now go to complete virtual development where we’re very proud to have the joint demo here at your booth as well. Coupling this with the OTA so we can completely, virtually develop these applications based on an Android, and also now dynamically deploy these to the targets here.

JOHN: Yeah, let’s go into that area. And you know, you and I’ve talked for many years about, the idea of cloud native design and CI/CD, and so this new cloud instance based on your Android, running it in AWS is a brand new thing you just launched last year. Tell us about that first and then we’ll go into the demonstration we did.

Android Based Cloud Instance

MORITZ: Yes. So right now, a lot of times when you want to deploy an application for cockpit systems, even when it’s running Android, you need to check for UX consistency. You have different screen topologies. You have a lot of specific designs because the cockpit is the face of car towards the customer. And it’s very hard to test these applications for everything. And now if you want to introduce new functions in the cockpit, I mean, we’re talking about curbside pick up or predictive maintenance or fleet management solutions. You really need to enable these companies to develop without having each and every single cockpit that they want to deploy to at hand.

JOHN: Right.

MORITZ: So this is why we completely decouple that application development from the underlying platform development. We expose data via the COVESA vehicle signal specification, so that you don’t need to have OEM-specific data interfaces. And then you can just scale up the development ecosystem using that. We also use this ourselves in our series level productions for cockpits. So we used it to massively parallelize our testing. We achieved in one project a speed of roughly 160x because we didn’t need to rely on sequential execution and extra hardware, but you could just arbitrarily scale on the cloud. And this is where it’s really a game changer for us these days.

JOHN: That’s great. And just coming back to our demo for a moment, because we should mention that. Our Sonatus Updater product, which we just launched last year, we’re showing a production grade version of that product now with the full UI. But, you know, here at the show, obviously we can’t do an OTA of vehicles because it’s parked. So we came up with an approach of, how can we really show off this product and at the same time highlight the partnership with yourselves. So we’re showing your Android instance that you just mentioned, running in the cloud on AWS, projecting the image created by that instance onto a tablet locally, right in front of us. And then with our console overhead, we’re simulating a fleet of a thousand simulated vehicles, plus the Android instance, and we’re showing an OTA update. So it really highlights all of the benefits of our technology separately, as well as how they work well together. And a viewer can see right in front of their eyes an OTA update. The other thing about OTA updates is, while they’re very important, they’re a little bit unsatisfying to watch because firmware is slow to write. So to watch an OTA of an IVI would take 5 or 10 minutes, which is not going to be an exciting demo. So having it in the cloud, it updates approximately instantaneously, which is a great visual experience. And as you said, great for prototyping and development.

MORITZ: Yes. And you could test the test rollout and see whether it actually applies to different variants.

Transitioning to SDV: OEM Challenges

JOHN: That’s right. So that was an exciting demo. We’re pleased to host that jointly with yourselves. And now Moritz, you talk to everyone in the industry. Every time I turn around in a conference, I’m always seeing you. You’re always there. So you talk to everyone. I’d love to get your perspective on, you know, where we are in the transition to SDV. What are some of the challenges and opportunities that you see OEMs facing?

MORITZ: So right now, when I look at the Gartner hype cycle, I would say we’re pretty much at the low point. I mean, the last year has been tough for many, many companies. We’ve seen lots of layoffs across the industry. But I also think we’re a bit over-indulging into apocalyptic scenarios right now. I’ve heard so many people say, well, there’s not going to be traditional OEMs around in a few years anymore. I don’t believe that. Because there’s just so much experience also in producing vehicles at scale, managing multi-brand fleets, and also across different price ranges. There’s quite a bit of knowledge in that. And, I think right now, the general sentiment in a lot of media is overly pessimistic.

JOHN: Overly pessimistic about the industry or about SDV?

MORITZ: About SDV and software capabilities in general. And what I see here at CES is lots of incremental changes, and I feel very much reminded, to 2014 with autonomous driving. So everyone was saying, well, yeah, we are not going to have steering wheels in three years any longer. And everyone needed to stop— take a step back. But everyone started to focus their investments way, way more. So we’ve now seen the first level three function with road readiness, in the market, in a publicly available vehicle. And I think we are kind of the same stage with SDV. So we now will see the incremental changes we see. First, upgrade capabilities really in cars across the market. And it’s not going to be the big revolution that happens with a snap. Right now, I published these SDV levels back in September, right?

JOHN: Yeah, it’s a very clever framework. Kind of matches the autonomous driving framework, but for SDV. It’s clever.

MORITZ: Right. This is exactly what I wanted to do.

JOHN: If you remind us, we’ll post a link to that in the show notes so people can check that out.

MORITZ: Right. So I wanted to get to exactly the same point as we had with the autonomous driving levels. Today, no one talks about autonomous driving anymore. Everyone says, well, we’re going to introduce a level three function, level four function. Everyone knows exactly what that means.

JOHN: Yeah. Terminology is so useful.

MORITZ: And this is what we are now doing. And I’m glad that so many people are picking these levels up now and using it in their day to day communication. I want to be sure that everyone knows what an SDV level two, SDV level three or four or five is because people are cutting back on their ambition now. So when we take, like, SDV level five, the highest level that I defined, it’s having an open app ecosystem for a vehicle platform. Very openly, I think it’s fairly unrealistic for ADAS.

JOHN: Yeah, of course.

MORITZ: It will likely happen for cockpit very easily. And the question is, well, where do OEMs really put their ambition? Where do they want to end up?

JOHN: Right.

MORITZ: And it helps a lot to really make the discussion less blurry, less buzzwordy, and be precise about the ambition and the next steps. And this is what I see now in a lot of these interaction, at conferences or with customers and partners, that people are capable of articulating clearer what they want, what customer value they want to provide, and then focusing on their investments, really on the relevant part. So I no longer see OEMs saying we want to update every single ECU and have third party apps, even on the washer wiper ECU for whatever reason, because it’s nonsense. And everyone’s now looking at cutting back a bit, but also focusing their investments way better.

JOHN: Yeah. What I like so much about that framework and about what you’re just saying is, and we’ve been talking about this with— throughout the show is, you don’t have to do it all at once.

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: And you don’t have to do every subsystem to the same level of aggressiveness.

MORITZ: Right.

JOHN: So there’s a spectrum of blocks and there’s a spectrum of how far you are. And so there’s, in my opinion, no excuse to do nothing.

MORITZ: Right.

JOHN: You just choose the right areas to focus on and you grow. And that’s going to reap benefits in the near term. And it will reap benefits in the longer term. And it’s a process.

MORITZ: Right. And the other part that I see in the industry right now is a lot of technology is available, by now, to speed up iteration cycles. When I look at CI/CD processes, virtual development.

JOHN: Right.

MORITZ: And I think we are, right now, still at a stage where the adoption rate of these technologies is way too low. I think it’s the availability. I think there’s organizational deficiencies in a lot of places that still hinder the adoption. And I think if we take out these organizational deficiencies, we can already gain a lot of speed.

JOHN: It’s true. And I’m not criticizing existing OEMs, but the reality is, and it’s well known, that the kind of… organization chart barriers are an impediment in some cases.

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: And I think we need to think about how do we restructure the design process to remove some of the silos that is deleterious to developing these systems in an integrated way.

Commercial Impediments

MORITZ: It’s not only the design process. I also see the commercial processes as one of the impediments. If you set financial incentives for organization units to simply reduce the bill of materials, you’re not going to be capable of implementing the architectural frameworks that you need to build a software platform. So you need to look at the total cost of ownership over multiple vehicle generations. And this really requires an organizational shift within many companies.

JOHN: It’s right. We were just chatting about this last night, actually, after the show. And that also extends into the business units as well, because the business units need to understand that they must (if they expect to be long term successful), realize they have to provide some growing room.

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: That is normally speaking anathema to the— kind of the optimizing, the margins, and so on like that. Because frankly, they’ll be uncompetitive in, I think, a relatively short order if they don’t. Because the vendors who do have capabilities, customers are going to say, you can’t update this car? I mean— and they’re going to very quickly know.

MORITZ: And this is the other part. So I’ve been asked by a bunch of people, do I think cars are going to become cheaper because there are now SDVs. And the clear answer from my side is no. Or at least not to a degree that it influences customer buying behavior significantly. So is the car going to be 10,000 bucks cheaper because it’s an SDV? I don’t expect that. Yes, zonal architectures you need to have for a newer SDV, they are capable of bringing down cost, but SDV itself doesn’t make it cheaper. SDV is a value play. In the end, today no one would buy a smartphone that doesn’t have an app store access.

JOHN: Yeah.

MORITZ: And no one will buy a car in the future that can’t be updated. And there’s also their total cost of ownership consideration. What’s the resale value of the car? If you own a 12 year old car that feels like a 12 year old car, you’re going to have a hard time selling it.

JOHN: Yeah, coming onto that resale point, I was at a conference with NXP a few months ago, and we— and someone made a really great point about this. Which is the— it may be that there may be some savings from, let’s say, zonal.

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: But then there’s some incremental cost from the extra hardware and something like that. So you might not necessarily get savings. I think EV will provide some savings and over time that will get better. But maybe— but what does change is the incremental value increase and potentially the decrease in the depreciation.

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: So that the actual net ROI long term is still favorable, even if the upfront cost isn’t necessarily lower.

MORITZ: And I think it’s important to separate the discussion between EV and SDV, because you can still have an SDV that is an ICE.

JOHN: Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. Exactly right. In fact, we’re showing right in the hall here, a car with our— a ICE car from Hyundai that has our technology in it.

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: So we’re absolutely not— but I mean, EVs give you some new opportunities as well, but they’re completely decoupled. And we totally agree with that.

Commercial SDV Vehicles

MORITZ: And the other part with SDV is there’s other parts aside from passenger vehicles where it gets extremely interesting. I think commercial vehicles are extremely relevant for SDV. Whereas there may be willingness to adopt SDV technology for passenger vehicles. For commercial vehicles, you have willingness to pay.

JOHN: It’s exactly right. And actually just literally right outside our view here, Moritz can see, we have an incredible commercial vehicle, where we’re showing a demonstration of exactly that. And I’ve been explaining it to guests all week long. And the point I make is, while a commercial— a passenger driver, of course, cares about their car, no doubt. In the case of a commercial vehicle, commercial vehicle is a, generally speaking, a revenue generating machinery.

MORITZ: Yes.

JOHN: Whether it’s a trucking, that’s moving goods. Whether it’s a construction thing that’s building things, mining, whatever. So, downtime on those is different. Fleet managers are those, you know, you don’t necessarily have a fleet manager for your own personal car. Perhaps you do for a rental fleet, but for commercial fleets, they look— they want to look holistically. They have heterogeneous machinery. They have real needs to do preventative maintenance that they professionally really care about. So actually we’re showing here exactly that. The opportunity is not just passenger cars in any way.

MORITZ: And when you look at market adoption of fleet management solutions, I mean, in the US, we are between 70 and 80% market adoption of fleet management solutions for commercial vehicles.

JOHN: And yet there are weaknesses and there’s things we can do better. And we’re looking to do that.

MORITZ: 80% of those solutions are aftermarket devices.

JOHN: Right.

MORITZ: Imagine that, like, plugging in a device into each and every commercial vehicle just to get the position data. I mean, that’s ridiculous. And this is what we can directly enable with… with software. And I think putting this on an Android is an easy thing, right? And so I think there is huge, huge potential in revolutionizing the commercial vehicle market with SDV as well.

JOHN: Absolutely. Moritz, it’s been so great to talk with you. We meet all the time. I see you everywhere across the world. You come to these shows. So I’m so glad we could finally corral you here at the show to join the podcast. I look forward to staying in touch with you and great collaboration with Elektrobit ahead.

MORITZ: Thanks a lot, John.

JOHN: If you like what you’re seeing from the podcast, please like and subscribe to see more episodes from CES and from our home studio. We look forward to seeing you again in another episode very soon.